Live blogging Question Time tonight…
Guests are: Shaun Woodward, Margaret Ritchie, Gerry Kelly, Sammy Wilson, Lord Trimble and Jim Allister. Should be good crack!! The live blog will be online from about 10 onwards…
Update: And we’ll keep it open for Hearts and Minds on which Martin McGuinness and Nelson McCausland do a great impression of two actors in radically different plays. Neither of them very funny.
David Vance
You are paid tax payers money to appear on the Beeb with your more level-headed face on. Are they aware that you view it as an upside that there were no Muslims in the audience? Why would you consider it a downside for a Muslim to be in the audience?
I object to my tax money going to such an unreconstructed atavist as yourself.
How on earth does anyone know there were no Muslims in the audience. Unless of course you rely on racial stereotyping and expect all Muslims to be a certain shade of brown!
Or all the Muslim wimmen wearing ninja turtle outfits.
Can’t help but remember David Vance’s previous hilarious claim that there was a Muslim panzer division at Stalingrad. I bet that’s where the question time Muslims were.
Ardmaj: your “satire” ref. is connected, I assume (?with the comment of the great satirist/songwriter, Tom Lehrer, when he heard that Henry Kissinger had won the Nobel Peace Prize, saying that it had made his (Lehrer’s job), and satirists all over, redundant.
David Vance if you’re still watching
Can I ask you, from the point of view of you being a TUV spokesman, under what circumstances your party would share power with Sinn Fein. It’s plain that some people within Sinn Fein were, using your terminology, terrorists, they bombed, they killed civilians (women and children included) as well as RUC and British Army (and indeed Gardai) , indeed the only person I knew killed in the Troubles was killed by the IRA at the Rough Collie Club meeting at the La Mon Hotel.
But here is a situation where the IRA have given up their arms and that has been verified by the IICD and Sinn Fein has undertaken to pursue its political objectives through peaceful democratic means. And as such Sinn Fein have a significant mandate to pursue their politics and in general as politicians they seem no worse than other parties.
So what is required for the TUV to share power with Sinn Fein. Must all those with unclean hands as you would say resign from Sinn Fein? And if so what is the criteria for determining people with whom you won’t deal. As a democrat (I’m making an assumption there), how can you make politics work if you don’t work with democrats whose views you don’t share? Must Sinn Fein ask for redemption – sort of like the Pat Robertsons and Jim Bakkers or must they self-flagellate begging for forgiveness – not meaning to be flippant but I know how important religious forgiveness is in some quarters of NI?
And by the way, what prevents the TUV from working with SF in the Assembly yet being perfectly happy to exchange words on a Beeb programme or indeed on here?
Jaggers
Sorry to hear about the person you knew killed at La Mon. That was indeed a truly monstrous act and the IRA leaders that authorised that deserve to hang fro the crime they masterminded.
The issue with Sinn Fein is three fold;
1. It contains many IRA savages in senior rank and they have not paid for their crimes. Since the IRA Army Council is still intact, the IRA/Sinn Fein hydra is still intact and we will not share power with it.
2. Sinn Fein/IRA are committed to the destruction of NI as a political entity. Which company would have on its board those who see the destruction of the company? It is a force for chaos and I refer you to Ms Ruane as an exemplar.
3. Thank you for making the assumption I am a democrat. If you are a democrat you will then accept I – and my party – have a perfect right to engage with whoever we want. I do not seek religious repentance from IRA killers – that is between them and their maker. I seek justice. So, for example, I would like to see the IRA commander who authorised the bombing of the little village of Claudy behind bars. If only we knew who he was?
4. TUV will not work with Sinn Fein in the same way as we would not work with PUP. Same sides of the one repulsive coin.
I have no issue in challenging Sinn Fein in any media venue and exposing their depravity. However I would not sit in a terrorist-inclusive executive such as the miserable failure at Stormont since to do so is morally wrong. Nothing that is morally wrong can be politically right.
Final point – since you ask a civil question – I do recognise that there are many who vote for Sinn Fein and this does give them a mandate. It does not confer upon them the right to be in government and that is where TUV policy is located. A voluntary coalition is the way forward here. A cohesive government and an effective opposition. What’s so wrong about that?
David Vance, thank you for taking the time for replying and for your sympathy which I don’t doubt is genuine.
1. You say that SF have many who have not paid for their crimes within the IRA. What are your party’s proposals to deal with that? From a legal point of view there are processes which can be invoked which determine a man’s innocence or guilt. What is your party doing about that? If nothing or indeed your efforts come to nothing, then will you accept that you must deal with these people? What evidence have you that the IRA army council is intact? An army council would have consisted of individuals and they may still be extant but that is not the same as an organisation being intact. I would guess the army council’s role was to direct IRA operations but hasn’t that organisation’s operations ended? I think it commendable that politicians and their parties be held to account particularly in the area of lawful behaviour but how exactly are your party doing that with SF?
2. You are absolutely right that SF want to see a united Ireland which would change the status of Northern Ireland from being a component of the UK to being a component of the Republic. But from the point of view of democratic politics, so what? Europhiles and euroskeptics abound but you would not turn your back on dealing with euroskeptics simply because they wanted to transfer sovereign powers to Brussels, or would you? Politics is about different views but with your mandates and ability, you determine how a piece of land and its people are governed – why doesn’t that apply to TUV? Is it because you don’t really have a mandate (I recognise the 66000 first preference votes last year but in an Assembly you’re likely to have 7% of seats, no?)?
3. I am indeed willing to accept that you are a democrat and as such have a right to choose to engage or not engage with any political party. However, as always in life, there are important political decisions to be made and NI, as elsewhere, is suffering economically at present and people want better public services. Taken in isolation, is your position in any way defensible or do you explain to your voters that a vote for TUV is a protest vote and will not result in better governance?
4. I think you referred to three points but I accept the logical integrity of your decision with respect to the PUP and SF.
To be honest I have a difficulty myself in resolving the logic of you being a democrat and recognising that many vote for SF AND denying that this gives SF a right to be in government. I’ve seen such views in Algeria and Egypt but you’d hardly hold those two countries up as paragons of good governance. It seems that the meat of the TUV position is in your point 1 and I would be very interested to hear how that can be progressed. It seems to me that someone with the integrity, morality and education as Jim Allister and others within the TUV would have a lot to offer the people of Northern Ireland but with a minor protest vote behind them, they’ll be like fruit rotting on the tree and no use to anyone.
I do not seek religious repentance from IRA killers – that is between them and their maker. I seek justice………….
shame the TUV would rather sign petitions to release loyalist killers……….
‘TUV will not work with Sinn Fein in the same way as we would not work with PUP.’
I don’t recall allister referring to the PUP/UVF in any recent discussions.
Perhaps its to do with the support within the TUV for mass murderer Torrens Knight?
How’s the petition going by the way?
David, Will the next petition involve the removal of all Asians from the north?
Jaggers
Thank you for that intelligent response. I don’t think we will agree but you make your contrasting views in a civil way. The two trolls that follow you could learn from your example.
David care to tell us how you can spot muslims, and indded it seems you can also spot jews now as well !
And why is it an ‘upside’ if there are no muslims?
David Vance,
It is obvious that your self-righteous attitude leaves you incapable of seeing things outside the little box you find yourself in. Your views on any kind of peace process is extremely blinkered.
It is rank hypocrisy calling yourself a democrat, wanting people to recognise your 66,000 vote mandate but your party wants everyone to ignore the 120,000+ mandate given to Sinn Fein in the Euro election, what is that all about??
Very difficult leadership decisions had to be taken in this country to end the Troubles here. Talking to someone that wanted to kill you is very hard to do but it was necessary to stop people dying and being maimed.
Something that is also forgotten is when talks were going on with the enemy, the enemy were talking to their enemy too, a two way street. Whatever your point of view is, both sides were left bitter, hurting and in sorrow.
The only thing TUV will give to the people of this country is a backward step in political terms, with segregation and alienation the order of the day. No one can argue that the political structures in Northern Ireland are ideal but coming out of a “dirty rotten stinking little war” it will be classed as a historical achievement.
Jaggers
>>It seems to me that someone with the integrity, morality and education as Jim Allister and others within the TUV…<<
Considering that everything flows from the immoral stance of integrity driven educated bigotry. You may just have a point, somewhere. Where you got the assumption that Mr Vance is a democrat from who knows. This is a guy who states that even the SDLP(should they ever receive a mandate) should not get into government because they favour a united Ireland. Oh and don’t mention carpet bombing.
You just provided him with an opportunity for a party political broadcast and of course the all too obvious bodyswerving of his bigotry concerning Muslims. Of course it is not de rigeur to bash fenians and Jews anymore for right-wingers, so Muslims will do.
Prionsa,
The TUV are a small feature on the political landscape (66,000 votes last year and a 7% poll in the Bel Tel). You or I may not like that but it’s a fact.
Jim Allister is many things but being a QC he is educated. I have not seen many stones being aimed at him for traditional immorality. Integrity is more of a moveable feast but he has been fairly consistent within TUV.
I asked David Vance the question about working with SF because I consider the people of Northern Ireland would be better served if Jim Allister and a few others in TUV spend 8 hours a day working on getting a specific company to invest in the province, or working out a more efficient way for a Health Trust to operate so that patients are better served or how a particular school can be improved or how drug abuse can be tackled or how organised crime can be overcome in a small province like this. Instead he spends his 8 hours working out how to belittle the DUP and the workings of the Assembly and take rhetorical potshots at SF. That’s a waste and a disappointment. Can’t imagine it’s the legacy that an educated man like Jim Allister would have chosen for himself.
By the way, it was me that put on this thread the selection of quotes from the tag David Vance which included the Muslim comment. Challenge the man and his views, no reason we can’t be civil about that. By the way David Vance, if you’re still there, I’d love to hear what the TUV’s position is in response what needs to happen so that the TUV will work with SF.
The two trolls that follow you could learn from your example.
Posted by David Vance on Feb 12, 2010 @ 10:06 PM
so david, did you or did you not sign the TUV petition to release a loyalist killer?
Jaggers
It is possible to be an educated bigot, the world is full of them. Allister’s integrity is in question just for the company he keeps never mind the underlying implication of his democratic (sic) principles.
I love the way that the word “civil” appears when we concentrate on the more uncivil attitudes and words of certain protaganists. We can agree that there is more than one way to skin a cat jaggers, but I can’t soft peddle on bigotry.
Prionsa,
There’s the beauty of this blog. It’s not very likely that I’m going to ever sit down with TUV members over a coffee and talk about their position – which to repeat is a position which garnered 66000 votes last year and would seemingly get 7% in an election tomorrow.
And yet, here I am with a mug of Carte Noire and able to offer an opinion and ask questions of someone who holds opposing views. If we stop being civil, we get nowhere on here except possibly being told by Mick that we’re not on the list and we can’t come in. And of course we can be civil without soft peddling ….
David Vance’s views in terrorism are not as straightforward as he might like us to think. All you need to do is ask him to condemn the Irgun and the King David Hotel bombing, and then sit back and wath as he either runs away (usually with a “I’ve had enough of Slugger for now, talk amongst yourselves” type comment), or equivocates about a bombing attack which killed British civil servants and civilians. I distinctly remember David a few years ago, in response to this question, stating that the Irgun were fighting a legitimate war of independence.
So I think we can assume that if the La Mon Hotel bombing had been conducted by Jewish fanatics fighting for the creation of a free Israel, David wouldn’t be here using it to lecture the rest of us about how bad terrorism is and why we shouldn’t have them in government.
GFAsupporterbutRealist [4]
No, actually, GFAsbr, I couldn’t have been referring to the episode you quoted, as I wasn’t aware of it. Thanks to your good self, I am aware of it now. Sunny Jim showed on Question Time that he has no insight into how unappreciated his hard line is seen by most unionist voters as pre 1968 attitude.
He really wants to get back to the good old days when catholics knew their place and NI was a ‘great wee country’ never mind that the South African all white govt were envious of the ‘Special Powers Act’ which allowed for the RUC to use whips on people in their cells. He probably thinks that Mandela is still a terrorist and should never have been released.
Comrade Stalin,
I don’t doubt what you say and indeed Nelson Mandela, Yitzak Rabin, George Washington, Oliver Cromwell, King Harold and Boudica would all qualify for categorisation as one man’s terrorist (Cromwell was a republican to boot).
I just wanted to get an insight into the TUV in 2010 to see whether there was a glint of a possibilty of seeing their political energies being directed towards good governance of the people of Northern Ireland (now they may say devoting all their energies to keeping SF out of government is a legitimate enough objective but where is all the rest that we expect from a normal force in politics?). And because he does represent a legitimate party with small though still significant support and because not everyone in the TUV is a banana, I wanted to explore whether that party can do anything of use in “normal” politics and what would be required to work with a party that is likely to get four times the TUV mandate.
David
A couple of questions.
Did you sign the petition for the release of mass murderer Torrens Knight & do you dislike all Mulsims?
Muslims
David Vance:
She is Palin without the looks, charisma and wit!!!
WoRaft:
Is that one of those leprechauns?
Ross:
Is she the new SDLP leader?
David Vance:
Yes, she is speaking Leprechaun.
Martin:
Couldn’t they get the Corrs girls on instead?
-
Disgraceful sexist and sectarian claptrap from Vance and his friends. There is a D. Vance on the recent leaked BNP membership list, a coincidence?
Jaggers
All very reasonable if you are new to Mr Vance, those of his ilk and their views, and he has more than enough people on his own site who pull their punches…………or else. As for soft peddling I am shite at that and usually speak as I find, and my civility goes to pot when we have bigots masquerading as what was it? “Educated moral democrats with integrity!”
Gie’s a break!
Jaggers, I’m sure those questions are being asked in good faith, but I’m not sure what the point is. The TUV is the latest political embodiment of rejectionist unionism. This flavour of unionism has never been about anything in particular other than being opposed to whatever the ongoing effort of the day is to try to bring about political reconciliation here.
Thankfully, though, Vance is a bit like Nurse Typhoid; every party he joins to help out ends up getting sunk.
Prionsa and Comrade Stalin,
Being civil with those with opposing views draws out their position and somtimes facilitates reconciliations of sorts – others have said on here that David Vance’s comments and position thus far revealed are immoral and as that great British statesman of the 19th century who was a passionate supporter of independence for Ireland, William Ewart Gladstone, once said “what is morally wrong cannot be politically correct”