Griffin breathes deep on oxygen of publicity…
NOW that Question Time is over and you’ve had a bit of time to reflect on BNP leader Nick Griffin’s appearance, do you think the Beeb was justified in letting him on? Has anyone changed their mind? Certainly many protesters haven’t. And how did the panellists perform? Did Griffin seem like ‘any other politician’, and were his views in any way legitimised?
Personally, I thought Griffin looked a bit nervous and maybe even over-awed, and I was left with the impression that I couldn’t believe a word he was saying. Coming from Northern Ireland, seeing extremists trying to act reasonably on the BBC while wrapped in a flag is a bit passé, so the experience for me didn’t feel novel, as it must have done in GB.
I was not particularly impressed by the other performances either. No real killer blows where the hype demanded it, perhaps indicative of the fact that it is due to other parties’ failures that Griffin was present. The main political party representatives, particularly Straw, seemed somewhat muddled and confused about immigration, trying to oppose Griffin’s anti-immigration views without saying they were opening the floodgates. Explaining nuance isn’t really suited to QT’s format, but for Griffin it’s more easily explicable, in fact it’s a black and white issue. Here, Griffin was at least consistent – consistently abhorrent, especially with his odd and dangerous views on Britain’s ‘indigenous’(?) races. But did his appeal to some lowest common denominator land the punches he claimed afterwards? Not really, I think.
Selected highlights here, for those outside the UK or with short attention spans. Hearts & Minds explored the issue from a local perspective with Roy Greenslade, David Vance (who sounded almost reasonable after hearing Nick earlier!) and Paddy Meehan of the Youth Against Racism group here. Is there a lesson from Northern Ireland that the English need to learn?
Brit
>>If your mental picture is based on Kilburn High Road over 20 years ago then that would hardly explain the recent relative increase in BNP support nor shed any light of recent rapid changes!!< <
Eh no, I sought to explain no such thing, I merely voiced an opinion that many areas which used to be white are now increasingly non-white. No matter how short a time, how many generations etc. And how many people may feel alienated which allows the hateful ones to get their foot in the door simply because those raising these fears may often be branded racist.
>>However many of the concerns are based on a hugely false perception and I would like progressive forces to explain why the perception is largely false rather than pander to it…< <
I don't believe in pandering to it at all, rather I agree with the sntence previous to the above where you seem to be taking a similar pandering line to me.
>>Now I do believe in allowing the BNP to speak on QT or elsehwere. I also believing in engaging with their arguments and showing them to be not just racist but also undemocratic and hostile to working class..< <
>>Lets do some robust myth busting about the numbers of immigrants and what they actually do so we can have a proper debate without being on the defensive.<<
Go ahead be my guest, provide us with dynamic evidence! Though I repeat the evidence of our own eyes should not be discounted.
“I merely voiced an opinion that many areas which used to be white are now increasingly non-white. No matter how short a time, how many generations etc”
The “increasingly” suggests a current and ongoing issue or even crisis which i strongly dispute (and you havent challenged me on that) But if you take the increasingly out of it this is all pretty ancient history.
Britain embraced signficant non-white immigration from the West Indies and South East Asia (and more recently East Africa), and the descendents of Caribeans, Indians, Pakistanis, Bangleshis the the overwhelming majority of the the inhabitants of the “many” areas which used to be white, in the 40s, 50s and 60s and are now not. Like North Kensington (aka Notting Hill before that bit of it became very white and gentrified).
These changes happened ages ago and have been accepted and there is no turning the clock back. The people who feel alienated and fearful and/or voted for the BNP in the EU elections are not responding to the changes above but to a false perception about being swamped.
I know people from overwhelmingly white towns who voice views about swamping and illegal immigration and the beloved bogus asylum seeker in complete ignorance because they have read the Daily Mail for the last 20 years. Their views are not based on any rapid or slow changes but on totally misplaced fear.
I’d like to know where these areas are which have changed so rapidly? Certainly not the kind of northern Lancastrian and Yorkshire towns where the BNP has attracted much support as the Pakistani and Bangleshi immigration took places in the 60s and 70s not recently?
Brit
>>The “increasingly” suggests a current and ongoing issue or even crisis which i strongly dispute (and you havent challenged me on that) But if you take the increasingly out of it this is all pretty ancient history.< <
Usually when there is a dispute it takes two sides. I do not dispute what you are trying to say regarding there being ethnic communities established from the sixties, however distant from the particular issues I raised. However for you to suggest that all of the ethnic growth is from generational ethnic groups, then that is patently nonsense.
>>Britain embraced signficant non-white immigration from the West Indies and South East Asia (and more recently East Africa), and the descendents of Caribeans, Indians, Pakistanis, Bangleshis…<<
Sorry but this embracing simply doesn’t fit the narrative told by the immigrant communities themselves. Tolerated and got on in the main might be closer to the truth.
Ok let’s address the ongoing theme here. You seem to believe that generational growth of immigrant ethnic communiities is not a problem. Yet many prospective party candidates now report that immigration is an issue, I reckon it would be difficult to tell recent immigrants from generational in some cases.
you also claim that there has not been massive immigration to the UK over the last ten years. I live in Scotland, traditionally a place that asylum seekers were/are forced to go to. Legal/illegal immigrants don’t exactly flock here either mainly due to the sparcity of jobs. Statistics show that the population of Scotland has been rising of late and the evidence of my own eyes tells me that there are a lot, lot more black, Aisan and Slavic faces(those that I can spot) kicking about. Even 5 years ago I could go all day and the only non-white faces I would see were in the local shops. Now there are plentifull varieties of Africans, middle-eastern, east and west Aisan and all living in my local area. My local area is typical of Glasgow.
Now if my own experiences notice a big difference, and considering that there are established populations of almost every ethnicity, and England get’s the lions share even when head of population is taken into account of new arrivals. Why do you not see this as a potential problem?
ps. I don’t read the daily mail.
Should read;
..almost every ethnicity in England but not in Scotland…
PE,
I’m not sure there is a huge amount of substance between us but I’m prepared to keep this going for a while longer.
“Sorry but this embracing simply doesn’t fit the narrative told by the immigrant communities themselves. Tolerated and got on in the main might be closer to the truth.”
You’re right, and the word was probably inappropriate. I meant to convey that the British government decided on large non-white immigration and that this has been a long term and accepted bit of British life which no serious or popular political movement has tried to alter. Of course I accept that immigrants faced dreadful racism when they first settled here. My wife’s father was a first generation immigrant from India so I know from only one-step removed what the reality was.
“You seem to believe that generational growth of immigrant ethnic communities is not a problem. Yet many prospective party candidates now report that immigration is an issue, I reckon it would be difficult to tell recent immigrants from generational in some cases. ”
I’m not being obtuse but I don’t fully understand what you are saying here. Are you talking about second, third and fourth generation non-white Britain’s from the traditional and established ethnic minorities? Are you talking about recent immigration and first generation ones?
In my view immigration has not given rise to any significant problems and such problems as are associated with it are balanced out by the benefits. The fact that immigration is a political issue doesn’t disprove my view as set out above. In the 1930s lots of Germans thought Jews were the principal cause of Germany’s problems and that they had to be dealt with. They were wrong.
“you also claim that there has not been massive immigration to the UK over the last ten years”
I’m not sure I said that but no I don’t think that immigration has been particularly massive however and certainly not problematic. The only particularly noticeable wave of immigration in recent years from a personal perspective has been from Poland and Eastern Europe but a) many have now moved back and b) concerns about such people is rarely high on the agenda of the BNP or its supporters.
“Now if my own experiences notice a big difference, and considering that there are established populations of almost every ethnicity, and England get’s the lions share even when head of population is taken into account of new arrivals. Why do you not see this as a potential problem?”
I don’t know the detail of the numbers but my understanding is that the total influx is not very signficant, and from my personal experience I have not noticed any rapid and sweeping changes, and certainly no major problems. Of course there could be a theoretical problem if there were no immigration controls whatsoever depending on the nature and size of immigration but such a change has not happened and would not be possible.
And, as much as I disagree with much of what you say, I wouldn’t have had you down as a Daily Mail reader in a million years.
Brit
I agree that there is not anything between us apart from the fact that I feel that a certain issue, ie the one I have highlighted could potentially be a problem, especially in England.
>>I meant to convey that the British government decided on large non-white immigration and that this has been a long term and accepted bit of British life which no serious or popular political movement has tried to alter.< <
Crucially important bit here that is raising it's head more and more. Regarding the views given to Parliamentry candidates that I mentioned earlier. Seems that the ordinary people, far from 'accepting' it(mass non-white immigration) are questioning why they were never consulted on it. The ubiquitous response to views on immigration being;
"Well we never asked for it!"
>>I’m not being obtuse but I don’t fully understand what you are saying here.< <
What I was trying to say(badly) was that unless you speak to them you cannot tell for how long anyone has been here. And also in the context that I am speaking of I don't think it really matters. Many whites feel alienated and increasingly outnumbered in various parts of England. You may not have a problem with being a minority white face in your own country, and you may indeed be correct. What we need to do is open up to those that feel that way and have a debate. I can only repeat that my own experiences of travelling in England was an eye-opener and understood completely why some may feel uncomfortable. To be honest I did, why? Don't really know. I have lived, went to school, had friends and relationships with all sorts of races/nationalities when living in multicultural Australia. Being part of a white minority did make me feel uncomfortable though, my self-awareness told me that if someone from my background could feel like this then anyone could, yourself not included ;¬)
>>In the 1930s lots of Germans thought Jews were the principal cause of Germany’s problems and that they had to be dealt with. They were wrong.< <
The Jews made up less than 1% of the population of Germany if I remember correctly and only added to german society.
>>I don’t know the detail of the numbers but my understanding is that the total influx is not very signficant..< <
Since none of us are producing numbers of recent immigrants, which in my view is irrelevant to my overall point anyhow we are going to have to disagree. Immigration is aq big issue for the bean counters though, not to mention the various political parties. Even labour were forced to initiate curbs by introducing the Aussie points based system.
>>I wouldn’t have had you down as a Daily Mail reader in a million years.<<
Thanks, made my day!
PE
My final comments on this.
Firstly the figures from 2001 census show less than 8% of the UK population is a non-white ethnic minority, so we are not in the same universe let alone ball park as having a white minority (clearly there are places where whites are in a minority and I’ve lived pretty much all my life in the borough of Brent which has a non-white majority). I feel totally comfortable seeing lots of black and asian faces around my street and area, and chinese and Jewish and white British and white irish, French, Italian, Poles, Russians and Brazilians (in fact I am generally extremely pleased to see Brazillians of certain gender). I admit that I probably wouldn’t feel comfortable living in an area which was 90% non-white, particularly if the 90% were all from the same ethnic minority (like west Baltimore, say) but I think such places are fairly few and far between in the UK. Also ghettos are often place of great social deprivation so there is an issue with poverty and exclusion as much as racial/cultural difference. Certainly in most of London, residential or central, you will see a mixture without any one community forming a majority.
Second, the overwhelming proportion of that 8% are from established communities (half of them asian – of Indian, Pakistani and Bangledeshi, and another quarter black and the remainder mainly chinese). These groups are very well and long established communities in the UK and certainly in London, Birmingham, Wolverhampton, Leicester and the northern mill towns where they are part of the fabric of British society. I don’t think anyone is saying “we werent asked” about the immigration which took place 50-30 years ago, bringing these people dads/grandads to the UK, or suggesting that these well established communities who re into fourth generation Brits are not British or should be sent “back” to India or Jamaica which is a distinct and foreign country for them.
Immigration happened and non-white Brits are a fact of life, which cannot be undone anymore than the second world war can, and its hard to imagine such a long passed event causing legitimate or well founded fear and alienation. Perhaps the more numerous non-white faces are newer in places like Glasgow and that has given you a false perception, or perhaps I am judging things from my London perspective where in many places there is often plurality of groups which causes less problems than when two communities are rubbing up against each other.
can’t fault your response, and I do feel that you are starting to become *more* aware that not everyone feels the same as you. granted part of my feelings may be because I am not used to some of the situations I found myself in whilst in England, and that our situation in Scotland lends us an easier oportunity to see the changes. However it does you no good to speak of false perceptions of those who do feel the alienation, the fear, for whatever reasons. The outright racists can easily be identified and rooted out. Racism is prevalent in all the ethnic groups, however the voices of ordinary people you ignore at your peril. Hence, I reckon the cry for help of some who are going to/already have voted for the likes of the BNP.